Wiesenthal and the Sunflower
Simon Wiesenthal had two decisions to make. First, what to respond, if anything, to Karl’s plea for forgiveness, and second, what to tell Karl’s mother about her son’s actions when Simon met her after the war. What do you think of what Simon did? Should he have forgiven Karl? Should he have said something to Karl’s mother?
April 23rd, 2008 at 6:07 pm
right now its easy to say yes, i would forgive him. however, as i try to put myself in Simon’s shoes, saying yes is a lot easier than it actually would have been. as i was reading the book, i thought how can this soldier even think of asking forgiveness from someone who is still being tortured. i think if i were SImon, i would have reacted the same way as he did. As for not telling KArl’s mother the truth about her son, i think that was the right decision. the woman was devastated enough, and telling her the truth would have broken her heart.
April 23rd, 2008 at 6:22 pm
I agree with the actions of Simon in Sunflower. Like one of the other characters said in the book, Simon did not have the authority to forgive the soldier for what he had done to others. I think that Simon would have been able to forgive the soldier for the actions made specifically against him, if there had been any, but only if that was the way that he truly felt. I believe that the soldier was sincere in his repentance, but I am not convinced that he would have felt the same if he had not been laying on his death bed. He also chose to place Simon in danger in order to make his confession. This act was selfish and Simon would have paid dearly if he had been caught sitting with the dying Nazi instead of working in the yard. As for Simon’s actions regarding the soldier’s mother, i feel that he did the right thing. There was no need to tell this broken woman who had already lost everything about the inhumane and deplorable actions of her only son.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:19 pm
There is no way that would forgive someone who has taken someone’s friends, family, religion, and life away from me. This soldier who is on his death bed just wants to be forgived so he will not have a guilty conscience. To be honest, i can’t believe he had the guts to ask him. To be honest, it’s hard to say i forgive you, but if looking at it as if i were dying and wanted forgiveness, i would have liked to of heard those words.
April 23rd, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Simon was faced with a very hard decision. Of course everyone wants to say that they would forgive Karl but I dont know if I would. Karl took everything away from alot of people and to forgive such cruelity would be so hard. As for not telling Karl’s mother, I believe Simon did the right thing. Sometimes it is just better to keep certain things to yourself and be the bigger person. It seemed like Karl’s mother had been through alot so why would you want to add to that.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:19 pm
I agree with the decisions Simon made during this time. If I were put into a situation where I completely lost my capability for emotion and I was witness to the murder of hundreds of people, I would never forgive anyone who was a part of creating that situation. I understand that Karl was legitimately sorry for what he took part in, but he could have tried to leave the SS if he felt so badly about what they were doing. Also, I agree with Simon’s friend in saying that Simon had no right to forgive this man for something he did to other people. If he were to represent the group of Jews who were killed, he would be accepting the German opinion that Jews are all the same, non-human filth. I think he did the right thing by just walking away silently, why should the SS have the privilege of dying peacefully when millions of Jews could not? On the other hand, I also feel that he made the right decision by not telling Karl’s mother what he had done. From Karl’s description, and by talking to this woman, Simon could see that she was innocent and was in a lot of pain because of what had happened. It would not have done her any good to learn the truth about her son. I think Karl was not a bad person; he just got caught up in the Nazi mentality, so his mother was right in saying that he was a good boy. In a way, I think by keeping silent with his mother, Simon was proving that he was better than the Nazis; he did not purposely want to hurt her and he wanted her to live the remainder of her life with good memories of her son. I understand how these are very difficult questions to be answered and could easily go either way, but I Simon made the best decisions he could in those situations.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Like someone mentioned before i don’t think Weisanthal was the one who should decide if Karl should be forgiven. After all the terrible things he did, and might have kept doing if not on his deathbed? Weisenthal felt like he should forgive him, but if he was not on his deathbed would he feel the same way? If i were Weisanthal i would have said the same thing, and even if he were really sorry, what he did might have been able to be fogiven but never forgotten. It seems like Karl just wanted to get rid of his guilty conscience and just die in peace, not thinking about others. Also i think Weisanthal did the right thing by not telling karl’s mother because her life was already complicated enough as it was and telling her what her son did would not make anything better but maybe worse.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Can a moral choice play a part in the complexity when forgiveness is questioned? True forgiveness must confront the hurt and evil face on;it cannot mask it, it cannot over look it, and of course it cannot truly forget it. The 14th Dalai Lama often says that the realm of human forgiveness is comprehensible. In life, we are all faced with a number of situations that tends to go beyond our conscience thoughts. In Simon’s case, the act of digging deeper into his heart, soul, and mind to find a solution or answer to Karl’s plea defines what makes him human. I think that granting a dying man’s needs is at times a wise decision although not always. When considering the treatment the German’s gave the Jews is unthinkable and unforgettable. So, Simon contemplates how much should be forgiven. Forgiveness means different things to different people. Simon could base forgiveness on his faith and leave it up to God to make the ultimate decision. But does God enter into this? What would I have done in Simon’s place? Even this doormat has limits. For Karl, there was no next time and I think he knew it. Asking for forgiveness under such conditions seems more insincere.I am not so sure that I could have sat next to Karl’s bedside listening let alone offer any amount of compassion. Simon’s decision concerning forgiveness is the climax in the Sunflower. As Simone states, “At last I made up my mind and without a word I left the room”(58). Simon confronts the SS man by not forgiving him and walks away because Karl repented.Although Simon becomes absorbed in his decision through flashbacks after Karl’s death which emphasizes the sunflower…German’s would be buried where the Jews only had mass graves noone to visit them. I think I would tend to feel guilt in my subconscience if i would have done the same…the lingering guilt. This guilt led him to visiting Karl’s mother. In this way, in his mind, Simon was forgiving Karl.Like most mother’s, they always believe that their son is good.The mother states that she was certain that her son did no wrong. This shined a light to the idea that he forgave Karl. For Simon, it would not have benefited him in any way to destroy a mother’s memory of her child as Simon would not want anyone to destroy the memory of those lost during the Holocaust. In Simon’s case, he wanted to her it from another source and to hear Karl’s mother’s version of his life,as Karl simply got caught up like many German’s did, making choices to help others or help others die because it was his duty. As Simon’s duty is for others to have awarness of the Holocaust. Simon’s own reaction…silence. Sometimes no matter what an answer a person gives it is still the wrong answer. He could not forgive the soldier for the murder of others,however he can spare a mother’s suffering. It would seem to us that any butterfly would flutter to each and every survivor whether in silence or not, whether there are limits to forgiveness or not. There remains the possiblity of never shall we forget (Elie Wiesel suggests in Night). For Simon, his silence brings him peace of mind. This book makes you really think about the meaning of right and wrong. I also found the arguments from the many people after the story were enlightening, maddening, inspiring,ridiculous, and brilliant. Simon wanted us to witness/read other human reactions and judgements, just as he displayed his own reaction. Everybody is a human being no matter the race just that each circumstance is different when forgiveness comes into play. It was very wrong what Karl was involved in and perhaps he was being selfish once again for his own purpose. I do not think I could have forgiven Karl but listening to what he had to say no matter how maddening it was…fact remains we are all capable of evil and sin…it how we respond or not respond to it.Does forgiveness exist? I am personally trying to understand that myself.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:01 pm
When Karl asked his nurse to bring him a Jew I strongly felt that Karl was only seeking forgiveness in order to relieve himself before his death; as if apologizing to one Jewish man could make up for the millions of lives taken by the group he was a part of. Although after learning more about the psychological aspects of those involved in the Holocaust actions I can understand how people were so easily persuaded into acting in such horrible ways, but I do not feel this justifies they be forgiven. If Simon would have forgiven Karl, then Karl would have been relived of his guilt. Not forgiving the Nazis is the best way to reprimand their actions because without forgiveness one can not rid themselves of their guilt.
Simon’s decision not to tell Karl’s mother about her son did not seem like the right decision. He cannot let this woman go on believing her son was an innocent being. It is vital for the sake of those who endured the Holocaust that the truth be told to rememer and prevent such occurrences. Like Elie Wiesel said: “I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.”
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:14 pm
To grant this man forgiveness, Simon would have to seek his own forgiveness. Simon in no way should have given Karl forgiveness, nor was it his place to give him forgiveness. I highly doubt that this man would have been sincere in asking for a Jew’s forgiveness, which in it of itself is an isult as ‘all Jews are the same’-if it were not for him dying. I doubt that if he survived he would see out a Jew and ask for forgivess Post-Holocaust; it probably would not cross his mind. I challenge the sincerity of Karl because deep down I believe he was doing it so he could have peace with himself, NOT out of regret. Simon really did not have the authority in my opinion to grant this because is it really up to one man to represent the millions killed to give a dying SS officer peace? If Karl truly felt guilt, he deserved to die with that guilt, a million times over.
However, I am struggling with the decision Simon made not to tell Karl’s mother. This woman was obviously already in pain. Did she deserve to have the harsh and hard truth? On the other hand, must the persecution of millions of people be ignored for this one woman to have a fond memory of her dead son, who had a hand in this horrible situation? This is a hard question that I am not sure how I could answer.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:48 am
I believe that if I were in that situation, I would like to say that I would have forgiven the soldier. Forgiveness takes a tremendous amount of strength from an indivudual, especially if someone is asking forgiveness, especially for some of the horrendous deeds that took place during the Holocaust. However, if I had lost friends and family members, and was thrown against my will into a concentration camp, I am not sure I would truly possess this strength. True, the soldier did seem sincere in his apology towards Simon. But what were his true motives? Did he truly want a Jew’s forgiveness, or did he simply want peace and the possibility of going to a better place after he dies? Such thoughts would cross my mind when deciding whether or not to forgive a Nazi soldier.
I agree with Simon’s decision not to tell Karl’s mother. I do not believe she would want to know the graphic details of the action her son took during the war. She needs to remember her son as the relatively good boy she knew and loved.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:25 am
I feel so bad for this man Wiesenthal; he has had to live thorough the turmoil of the death camp and then live for the rest of his life questioning himself did he handling of the SS soldier’s (Karl) desired to repent. The double edge sword that is give to a survivor that already has to deal with the extreme cruelty of the Holocaust but having to see this man and not responding to him. I believe that he was very brave in going to the SS man’s mother’s house and not tell her of the bad things he had done in order to preserve her remembrance of her son, whom she saw as a good Catholic boy. Wiesenthal was asked an unfair request! First he was a Jew and not able to give a Catholic absolution, Secondly he at the time of the confession was an inmate in a concentration work camp, and thirdly the most horrific treatment and murders were transpiring to he and his people at the time of the confession.
The selfish SS man placed an even greater hurt on Wiesenthal after reading that his father did not want him to enter. this disrespectful SS man deserved not to have a Jew at his bed side as he laid dieing in the hospital. I can not fathom the strain and struggle that Wiesenthal has had to live with so unfair to he and his life.
April 24th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Simon should have forgiven the SS Officer because Jesus always said to forgive your enemies even though they have mistreated you. If you expect to be forgiven of your sins by God, then you should forgive others that have mistreated you. We all want forgiveness from the people we have hurt in some way so why shouldn’t another forgive someone for doing something to ones community. Even though the officer didn’t do anything towards Simon personally or physically, he should still forgive him because he has admitted doing something wrong to Simon’s community. In addition, he should had told the officer that he should not be asking only him for forgiveness but God as well for his wrongs. Simon was right for not telling Karl’s mother what his son had done that no longer made him a “good boy” in her eyes. I know I may seem crazy to be saying this, but it is exactly how I feel and has been always taught to because it’s stressed so much in the Bible and it doesnot lie despite what you may believe.
April 24th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
I cannot say what the right or wrong decision is because everyone had thier own opinion. However, if I were Simon I would have done the same thing. Also, it was not only one Jew who was targeted, there were millions of Jews tortured and killed and asking one for forgiveness does not obsolve the perpetrators of there sins. I think that if you do something wrong you should take it in stride and live with it because not all actions and words are easily forgivable. Simon could not speak for all of the Jews and I think the SS man would not have asked for forgiveness if he wasn’t on his death bed. Personally I would have not said a word and let the man die for all of the horrible things he was a part of. Millions of Jews died not millions of SS men. I think Simon should have only forgave the man if he in his heart wanted to. I think his mother thought he was a good boy in a sense but also displayed so sort of Holocaust denial. She acted as though she didn’t know what the SS men were doing. She must have known her son participated in the genocide one way or another because they all did. I think she was trying to convince herself that her son was innocent for her own peace of mind.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
It would be extremely hard to forgive this man after what has gone on. It would take alot from a person to forgive him, especially if it was a family member or a friend. Me personally I dont know if I could do it. But when it came down to telling the mother, I feel it was handled the right way. She had already been through alot, it isn’t fair to her to have to hear all those horrible things about her son.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
I try to keep the mindset to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I would have wanted Karl to forgive me if i were to have wronged him in anyway. Although, in this case, if I were actually in Simon’s position and face to face with a man who has murdered my friends and family; I don’t think I would be able to forgive him either. I don’t blame Simon at all for not forgiving this man and all the horrible things that he’s done. I don’t really feel like it was necessary for Simon to tell Karl’s mother that Karl wasn’t really the ‘good boy’ she saw him as. I feel that if he did, he may have been freed of his nightmares, but in the long run, I feel that he has made the right decision by allowing Karl’s mother to keep that peaceful state of mind.
April 26th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
As I was reading this book, I realized it was framed in a way so the reader would contemplate whether or not Simon did the “moral” or “noble” thing in not forgiving the S.S. soldier. My thoughts were not if he did the right thing or not, but rather on why I was reading something that even begs such a ridiculous question. Without getting into the semantics of whether or not one man can be representative of an entire race, I can say he by no means should have forgiven Karl, and by no means should have thought twice about it. Simon was, after all, in a concentration camp at the brutal hands of the S.S. where he was starved, tortured, and beaten regularly. How is that forgivable? How can we shrug at giving a dying murderer peace when Simon would have walked right out of there and gone right back to his slave labor and starvation? Karl’s intentions were self-motivated by his own need to seek some sort of religious absolution from a man whose own religion he despised. How can we contemplate if he owed Karl that, or owed Karl’s mother his silence, when his own family was murdered without question?
April 26th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
I feel that Wiesenthal did what he felt was right in his mind and heart. I don’t think I could forgive someone that was so hurtful to my friends and family. Even though this young man may have been a good person, he was overcome by evil. Granted people do make mistakes and that’s why I think Wiesenthal questions his actions towards the SS solider because Wisenthal is not a cold person and he is very caring. It was a hard decision to make and I am sure this haunts the author everyday, but this is what he felt was right. I question whether or not the SS solider was sencere because why did he wait til he was lying on his deathbed to ask for this forgiveness? He willingly made the choice to join the Hitler Youth Group so I find it hard to feel sorry for him, he chose to put himself in this vulnerable position. I also like how throughout Part I Wiesenthal constantly refers to the sunflowers and he says he feels jealous that the murderers get these beautiful flowers to still connect them with earth, but that he who did nothing wrong will get no flower and will be buried in a mass grave. In the end when Wiesenthal meets the dead SS solider’s mother I think it shows him that the young man wasn’t lying, but that still doesn’t erase the pain he caused to the innocent Jews. Wiesenthal was a disent person because he did not hurt this frail old woman with the truth about her son, I feel I would have done the same in that situation. I do not look down on the author with contempt because how could you forgive someone that caused your people so much pain, whether he was truly sorry about it or not.
April 28th, 2008 at 9:16 am
I like to make a correction to my statement. I think that Simon shouldn’t forgive Karl because he didn’t really do anything to Simon personally. In the Book of Matthew, Jesus said to always forgive the one who have wronged you personally, not that you have to forgive another for a wrong they had done to others of your community. Karl needs to ask God for forgiveness for what he has done to the Jews who didn’t live to see today since he can’t ask them in person for forgiveness. Also, he needs to be sincere and ready to make a full conversion. Karl must remember that he can’t fool God because God knows whether you mean it or not to ask for forgiveness for your sins.
April 28th, 2008 at 9:36 am
i believe that simon did the right thing in both situations. it was not simons place to forgive karl. For karl did nothing to him and/or for him. he was still a poor starving jew in a camp. dispite this fact, it was also not his place to not forgive karl for the same reasons he was not able to forgive him for. so silence was all he could offer the dieing SS solider. i also think he did the right thing by not telling karls mother the truth about her son, for i believe that simon could tell that the mother was struggling with the memories of the events in her holocaust and that it would be wrong for him to tell her about the horriors her son helped commite so silince worked best in that situation also.
April 28th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
I feel that in a situation like this, forgiveness would depend upon the individual. Simon did not forgive Karl, but he seemed to be tormented by his decision for the rest of his life. I understand how difficult it would be to forgive someone given the circumstances, but I feel that if someone was on their deathbed and confessing to me, I would say that I forgave them even if I truly didn’t mean it. I think that this would right because the SS soldier made it clear that he wanted peace before he died and he wanted to get peace through forgiveness . He seems to deserve forgiveness because he did not have to apologize to anyone for what he did, he requested that Simon come so he could confess to him on his own accord. I feel that if Simon truly didn’t want to forgive the soldier, then his decision would not have haunted him the rest of his life. Regarding the mother, I personally would have told her what her son did, then told her I had forgiven him. Simon chose not to tell her anything, but his decision was not wrong. There is not one correct way to handle a situation like this. Nobody is obligated to forgive someone else for their transgressions. Forgiveness ultimately is something that can only take place between God and man. If Karl was truly sorry, then God may forgive him, but even if Simon forgave him, it wouldn’t mean much to the actual forgiveness of Karl’s sin. People are in no position to condemn another person’s actions, even in the most extreme circumstances, that judgment is reserved for God and all we can do is make choices based on our own will.
April 28th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
how could you forgive him after the things that he did. I dont care that hes if hes on his death bed i would never forgive a single storm trooper. Its not like he just lost his head and made a mistake during the war, he committed numerous hanus acts. I would never forgive him. As for the mother i would not have said anything.
April 28th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Simon did with Karl as I believe I would have. Simply walked out and left Karl to his own privately constructed hell. To Karl’s mother however I am not sure how I would have reacted. She did nothing overtly wrong, other then raise a murderer. To forgive anyone in any of these situations is up to the individual survivors and I am not in any position to judge their decisions one way or another. I am not sure I could forgive anyone that would have been involved with the Shoah.
April 28th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
With my beliefs, I would have forgave Karl. Although some of these acts seem to be unforgivable, I wouldn’t be able to live with myself knowing that I couldn’t allow some one to die at peace, no matter what the circumstance be. We both know that what these SS troopers did were wrong, but it is my job as a human being to forgive and never forget, because ultimately, I’m not going to be judging them when they die. Simon and Karl both knew that what Karl and the Nazi people were doing was wrong, but they doesn’t mean that he thinks it was the right thing to do. I believe that a lot of the Nazis’ were psychologically forced into doing things, even if they thought they were wrong. They were highly influenenced by the power they received through these horrifc acts, that they began to not think of the unethical consequences. I think Simon showed a lot of strength by not revealing what his son has done throughout the Holocaust. Its not like his mother was bragging about the horrific things he did, but she was proud of him being a solider and protecting their country. So, I think that Simon did the right thing and allowed Karl’s mother to live happily, even if it was on fake allegations of her son.
April 29th, 2008 at 9:13 am
I feel that in both accounts Simon made the right decision. First in regards to offering forgiveness to Karl, i do not think that given Simons situation it was possible. Remember as soon as Simon was done talking to Karl, he would be going right back out to work in the death camp. I know that i personally would not have been able to offer forgiveness to this man either. Second with regards to Simon’s decision to not say anything about what Karl did during the war to his mother, i also agree with. Simon realized very quickly that the memories that Karl’s mother had of him and the realities of Karl actually did were very different and he did not want to ruin his mothers high memories of her son. I also think that this was a way for Simon to finally offer his forgiveness to Karl. Although he did not forgive him personally on his death bed, he did choose to allow his family to have only good memories of him which as we all know was very far from the truth.